A New Theory About Atlantis By August Hunt
Copyright 16 October 2008 / No Use Without Prior Permission.
According to Plato’s Critias, 9000 years had elapsed from the time of the war of Atlantis and the Mediterranean powers to Solon’s visit to Sais in Egypt in c. 590 B.C. Sometime after this war occurred the earthquake in which Atlantis, greater in extent than Libya and Asia, sank beneath the sea.
The problem with this calculation of 9000 years is simply this: in Plato’s _Timaeus_, we are told that is was the Athenians – Solon’s own people – who by themselves had defeated the Atlanteans. As we know from a combination of archaeology and written sources, Athens did not come into existence until around 3000 B.C. Furthermore, although the city seems to have more or less weathered the Dorian Invasion, its only solitary defeat of a massive invading force did not occur until the Battle of the Plain of Marathon, fought c. 490 B.C. In this battle, the Athenians, without help from allies, defeated Darius the Great and his Persians.
GREEK VASE DEPICTION OF DARIUS THE GREAT AND HIS COURT
BATTLE OF MARATHON
The Persian or Achaemenid Empire at the time of Darius embraced and had spread beyond both Libya and Asia. I find it odd that no one has thought to associate this geographical entity with the Atlantis described by Plato.
THE PERSIAN EMPIRE
Let us propose, for the sake of argument, that what Solon actually received while in Sais was not, originally, a story of the distant past, but a prophecy. The prophecy told of the upcoming war of the Greeks and the Persians. The reference to Atlantis being outside the Pillars of Herakles in the Atlantic Ocean is an error; the real pillars were probably those twin pillars erected at the Bosphorus by Darius the Great himself:
(Herodotus)Â “And having viewed the Bosphorus, he [Darius] erected two columns of white marble on the shore… Now these columns the Byzantines some time afterward removed into their city, and used in building the altar to the Orthosian Artemis, except one stone; this was left near the Temple of Bacchus in Byzantium…”
This Artemis Orthia/Orthias/Orthosia is said to have been named from the mountain called Orthosium or Orthium in Arcadia. The heroine Atalanta, for whom the Atalante (or Atalanti) place-names in Boeotia are named, is associated in Greek myth with both Boeotia and Arcadia. Furthermore, Atalanta was a favorite of Artemis.
The Persian Anahita, goddess of all the waters and the source of the cosmic ocean, was identified with Artemis. It stands to reason, then, that the text inscribed on one or both of pillars of Darius mentioned Anahita and it was for this reason that the Byzantines adopted the said pillars for the altar of their own Artemis Orthosia.
One cannot help but wonder if Darius’s inscription also invoked Verethraghna, the Persian equivalent of Herakles. Although our only real evidence of the presence of Verethraghna in Achaemenid Zoroastrianism comes from the late period and has to do with a calendar day named for this deity, it is generally believed that the faience tile from Persepolis, showing a falcon battle standard, is a representation of Verethraghna.
VERETHRAGHNA TILE FROM PERSEPOLIS
The founding at Herakleia near the Bosphorus took place, according to Gocha R. Tsetskhladze in his _The Greek Colonization of the Black Sea Area (1998)_
“ca. 560-550 B.C. Pseudo-Symnos says, ‘they founded it, having set off from Hellas, about the time when Cyrus [the Great] took Media,’ i.e. about the time of Astyages’ defeat by Cyrus… The new colony was just over 200 km east of the entrance to the Black Sea…”
A large component of Megaran Herakleia Pontus was actually Boeotian, a group who claimed Atalanta as their own.
Herodotus also describes the twin pillars of Herakles (= Phoenician Melqart) at Tyre on the coast of Lebanon. During the reigns of Darius and Xerxes, Tyre was a part of the Persian Empire. He also briefly discusses another temple to ‘Tyrian Herakles’ on the island of Thasos off the coast of Thrace. This Thasos was subdued by Darius.
Ladies and gentlemen:
1. First, the theory is not new, has already been defended, but without any success, in the eighteenth century by various authors.
2. Second, the theory is based on speculation that perhaps Plato was wrong and made mistakes, in addition to very serious, confounding, confusing even the closest East with the farthest west, which is the biggest nonsense that we can conceive, for a philosopher, mathematician and geometer was as Plato, who knew perfectly well where they were located the Pillars of Hercules (Gibraltar), and where was the Atlantic ocean, in the same manner that he knew were located where the Lands of the Persians, to the East.
3. In the Timaeus and the Critias, we read with absolute clarity and precise, that Atlantis was an island, just before the mouth of the Pillars of Hercules in the Atlantic Pelagus, which no doubt refers to Gibraltar, but more precise Plato yet, and that there were no doubts, says that part or portion of Atlantis, which was next to the Pillars of Hercules, was called by the name of Gadeira, or the same Gades, or Cádiz of Andalucia, Spain .
4. It is a complete nonsense to assume that Plato confused 9000 soldiers, or warriors, with 9000 years. In Greek, as in Egypt, the word for years, and for, soldiers, warriors, or men, do not seem in any way, either in written form or in the pronunciation. Therefore, it is completely impossible that there has been a mistake as serious as this.
5. Plato locates the end of the primitive Athens (after this defeated army of Atlanteans), in an earlier era, but next time, the Deucalión, when kings reigned from the Cecropidae Dinasty, this era is specified at all the old Classical Chronologie , Around 1530 BC (100 years earlier, or 100 years down). Therefore, whether 9000 years before Solon, or 11,560 years ago, or just being around 1600, or 1500 years BC, in either case, does not coincide with the wars against the Persians.
6. The Greeks of the time of Plato, and even in the times of Solon, knew only one place around the globe under the name of the Pillars of Hercules, located at the mouth of a sea Atlantic, and near a region called Gadeira . And the only place, was the same as today with those names, which is located between the coasts of Iberia and Morocco in the area of the present Strait of Gibraltar.
Conclusion:
The only place on the planet earth, where there have been three names of the toponimy together, or nearby, as are Atlantic, Pillars of Hercules, and Gadeira, has been in the current environment of the Strait of Gibraltar.
This theory is one of the most absurd, and pseudoscientifical theories about Atlantis, which has existed. For these obvious reasons, is that had no success in the eighteenth century, and already in the nineteenth century, was barely mentioned, almost falling slowly into oblivion.
Georgeos,
Welcome to the site and I’m pleased you have taken the time to comment on this article. I have previously read of your work in Spain and I’m sure the readers of Atlantis Archives would be interested to learn more of the developments of your research. If you are interested you can contact me via the link at the top of the page.
With regard to August Hunt’s theory I’m sure that you can appreciate that until the existence and location of Atlantis can be substantiated beyond all doubt there will be numerous theories in circulation, some of which may be more credible than others. Likewise each theory will have its own group of supporters. At Atlantis Archives we aim to collate as much information on the subject as possible and provide a forum for open discussion from which people can draw their own theories and conclusions…
Dear Mr. Georgeos DÃaz-Montexano:
Thank you for you letter regarding my article on Atlantis and the Persian Empire. I did try to write to you privately, asking for bibliographical information on these 18th century sources that supposedly floated the same theory. I was ignorant that the theory had been proposed before – and naive enough to think I had originated the idea! Although since writing the article I have accumulated additional arguments to support my position on this subject, I wish to refrain from making these public until I know whether I am merely repeating the research results of a predecessor.
Can you kindly send to me the 18th century authors and their works? Or post those here so everyone can consult them, please?
Thank you and best wishes,
August Hunt
As no information from Mr. Diaz-Montexano has been forthcoming either from here or via the apparently valid email address he provides on his own Website (I have emailed him twice), I can only assume that the claimed 18th century sources ‘by various authors’ are either unknown to Mr. Diaz-Montexano or do not, in fact, exist.
I myself have been unable to find them. If any other reader of the Atlantis Archives Website knows the name of these authors and/or the titles of their works, I would be deeply indebted.
Sincerely,
August Hunt
Mr. August Hunt.
You do not sent me any email. I have not received
no email from you asking for the authors of
eighteenth and nineteenth century raised the same assumptions
on East Atlantic based on a memory of
Persian Empire. And this is the second time I visit this
page after the message I wrote here in
October 27, 2008 at 8:47 am. Therefore, today is the
first time I have recorded that you were
interested in learning the above mentioned
in my first message.
In my book will published in September of this
years, you know some of the most
Important authors in the XVIII and
Nineteenth-raised and defended very similar assumptions and
the same theory that you are now proposing a new or
original. At the moment I can not advance anything, because no
can violate the confidentiality agreements and exclusive
I signed with my Editorial as these sources
form part of my original research (protected by
copyright), where I have rescued many of oblivion,
after many years of tireless searching multiple
libraries in many countries.
In any case, I am surprised that you did not
known some of these sources, since in any
serious literature search, and deep, about
history of Atlantology, there are always two or three
appear.
Moreover, you can rest easy, because
no theory is exactly like another, and you
adds some new elements. This is important, but
it is also important to recognize that in general, or
Essentially, the theory that you are proposing now is not new,
nor is it original, and in fact, is one of the oldest
Theories about Atlantis.
Thank you for your response, but that’s really quite absurd.
I’ve published five books to date, and my sixth is soon to be published. Never have I been prohibited by a publisher from simply passing along the author and title of a source utilized in research or in a standard bibliography. I’ve also regularly consulted scholars of the highest level whose works were in progress, etc., and they have always been very forthcoming with citations of sources I requested.
I can only assume that sources you claim exist do not, in fact, exist. Otherwise, you would have no problem passing them along to an interested party.
No other Atlantean expert I have consulted is familiar with the sources you claim mention the theory of a Persian explanation for the Atlantis story.
I can only conclude, therefore, that there aren’t any.
Sincerely,
August
I neglected to reinforce my earlier statement regarding my multiple attempts to email you. Your Webite is accessible through the link on your name here on Atlantis Archives. If one goes to this Website, one is given the option of choosing the English version – which I did. That is found here:
http://www.antiquos.com/La-Atlantida-de-Platon/atlantis-ibero-mauretanean/index.html
I used the form email contact you provide on that page, and was told each of the three times I emailed you that the message had, in fact, been sent. If you did not receive my messages, I suggest you have your Webmaster check to see why that form email function is not working properly.
Once again, I ask for the sources you claim exist for an early theory on Persia as the prototype for the Atlantis story. That ancient sources available in libraries and not your own private property, and not copyrightable by you, are being concealed under a supposed secrecy agreement with your publisher is, frankly, a ridiculous notion. Just the other day I was communicating with a renowned Maya scholar on certain aspects of codices and he was so forthcoming with assistance that he sent me selections from two unpublished academic papers.
Sorry, but I don’t buy what you’re saying. And my continuing search for the sources you claim exist have been in vain.
August
Dear August Hunt:
Offered my apologies for not responding sooner. The reason was the huge job since I am engaged in the final stages of editing my book about the Plato’s Atlantis, and the historical palaeographical and archaeological sources.
You have chosen to call into question my credibility, denying that there are no sources before you who have tried the same idea and hypothesis of association between the Persian Empire and the history of Atlantis. As explained, there are earlier sources, and on this occasion, I give only a few references and a few pieces, among the best known of the “true atlantologists”, and true scholars and researchers of Plato’s Atlantis, and the texts of Plato.
I hope that in the same way as you, so hurry decided questioning my credibility, now offer a sincere apology.
Kind regards,
Georgeos DÃaz-Montexano
http://www.GeorgeosDiazMontexano.com
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1 Procli commentarius in Platonis Timaeum graece By Proclus, Carl Ernest Christoph Schneider, 1847, Page 122
“Since, however, the Persian expedition came from the east against the Greeks, and particularly against the Athenians, Plato introduces the Atlantic war from the West…”
2 Plato, The Dialogues of Plato, vol. 3 (The Republic, Timaeus, Critias) >
INTRODUCTION AND ANALYSIS.
“Could any war between Athens and the Island of Atlantis have really coincided with the struggle between the Greeks and Persians, as is sufficiently hinted though not expressly stated in the narrative of Plato?…”
“This mythical tale, of which the subject was a history of the wars of the Athenians against the island of Atlantis, is supposed to be founded upon an unfinished poem of Solon, to which it would have stood in the same relation as the writings of the logographers to the poems of Homer. It would have told of a struggle for Liberty (cp. Tim. 25 C), intended to represent the conflict of Persia and ellas….”
“This mythical conflict is prophetic or symbolical of the struggle of Athens and Persia, perhaps in some degree also of the wars of the Greeks and Carthaginians, in the same way that the Persian is prefigured by the Trojan war to the mind of Herodotus, or as the narrative of the first part of the Aeneid is intended by Virgil to foreshadow the wars of Carthage and Rome…”
“In contrasting the small Greek city numbering about twenty thousand inhabitants with the barbaric greatness of the island of Atlantis, Plato probably intended to show that a state, such as the ideal Athens, was invincible, though matched against any number of opponents (cp. Rep. iv. 423 B). Even in a great empire there might be a degree of virtue and justice, such as the Greeks believed to have existed under the sway of the first Persian kings. But all such empires were liable to degenerate, and soon incurred the anger of the gods. Their Oriental wealth, and splendour of gold and silver, and variety of colours, seemed also to be at variance with the simplicity of Greek notions. In the island of Atlantis, Plato is describing a sort of Babylonian or Egyptian city, to which he opposes the frugal life of the true Hellenic citizen….”
3 Laws – Plato. Translated by Benjamin Jowett, 1871. (Preamble)
“Because there was a Persian empire, which had a similar hostility; and not only the fable of the island of Atlantis, but the Trojan war, in Plato’s mind derived some features from the Persian struggle…”
4 Science-fiction, the early years: a full description of more than 3,000 … Everett Franklin Bleiler, Richard Bleiler, 1990; Page 598
“Much the strongest interpretation is the traditional one that Atlantis was a literary myth created by Plato, with an element of allegory on the Persian wars…”
5 Plato: political philosophy. Malcolm Schofield, 2006; Page 209
“What Plato is giving us in Critias’ narrative is a multidimensional historical allegory. Perhaps at a first reading one is put in mind of the heroic Athenian victories over the Persian empire…”
6 The dance of the islands: insularity, networks, the Athenian empire, and the … Christy Constantakopoulou, 2007; Page 168
“Vida-Naquet argued that the structural oppositions between the Peloponesian wars. The description of Atlantis, in particular, shared characteristics with the Athenian conception of the Persian empire in the period of the Persian wars…”
7 Plato 3 the Dialogues Second and Third Periods. Paul Friedländer, Hans Meyerhoff, 1958; Page 384
“Plato conceived the myth of Atlantis and the invasion of the Atlantides after the model of the Persian Wars…”
8 The Secret of Plato’s Atlantis. John Francis Arundell Arundell of Wardour; 1885,Page 76
“the Persian War, it must have been imported by Plato…”
9 Platonic studies of Greek philosophy: form, arts, gadgets, and hemlock. Robert Sherrick Brumbaugh, 1989; Page 117
“The complex conscript army of Atlantis, with its multiple specialized units, is an obvious echo of the Persians army, as its defeat was no doubt inspired by the Persian War…”
10 Plato. Eric Voegelin, 2000; Page 205
“In the Critias, with its story of a war between Athens and Atlantis, we are in the realm of history. The memory of the Persian War furnishes the background for an Athens tha remains victorious against…”
11 Plato on democracy. Thanassis Samaras, 2002; Page 206
“In Timaeus 20e, Plato refers to Athens’ ‘notable achievements … to the Athens of the Persian Wars and the preceding years, Atlantis to the democratic city … Atlantis is, like Persia, a barbaric country. From this point of view, the war between Athens and Atlantis becomes the mythical counterpart to the Persian Wars…”
12 Atlantis, fact or fiction? Edwin S. Ramage, J. Rufus Fears, 1978; Page 97
“Perhaps Plato was thinking of the Persian empire…”
13 The Greek world, 479-323 B.C… Simon Hornblower, 1999; Page 66
“Some Greeks admired Persian methods; even Plato, who thought that Persians suffered, as from a disease, from an excess of tyranny which made them congenitally weak. could call their empire a ‘solidly system’ (Laws 685 where the reference is to Persia. Note also the intriguing possibility that the mighty empire Atlantis, depicted in Plato’s Timaeus, stands for Persia)…”
14 Apeiron: A Journal for Ancient Philosophy and Science. Monash University. Dept. of Classical Studies, 1980; Page 123
“Atlantis was also a great power, the description of whose greatness… There can be little doubt that Plato had the Persian War in mind when he wrote this passage…”
15 The deep well. Carl Nylander, 1969; Page 167
“That the sunken kingdom (Atlantis) might well be seen in combination with the Persian Empire has already been indicated. But in addition the architecture of Atlantis…”
16 The Journal of the Society for the Study of Egyptian Antiquities. Society for the Study of Egyptian Antiquities. Sep 10, 2008; Page 27
“The grandiose side of Atlantis shows the impress of the Persian Empire…”
17 Statesman. Plato, Joseph Bright Skemp, 1952; Page 85
“The Atlantis story in the Timaeus and Critias may be largely Plato’s own imaginative fiction designed to show the victory of a ‘nobler Athens’ (of the past!) over a greater than Persian empire…”
And also in:
18 Cultural responses to the Persian wars: antiquity to the third millennium. Emma Bridges, Edith Hall, Peter John Rhodes, 2007, Page 100
19 The myths of Plato. John Alexander Stewart, 1905, Page 454
20 Plato: a critical biography. Jenő Platthy, 1990; Page 214
21 On the interpretation of Plato’s Timaeus: critical studies. John Cook Wilson, 1889; Page 120
22 Persian Fire: The First World Empire and the Battle for the West. Tom Holland, 2007; Page 107
23 Ancient ruins and archaeology. Lyon Sprague De Camp, Catherine Crook De Camp, 1964; Page 19
24 Ancient astronauts, cosmic collisions, and other popular theories about man … William H. Stiebing, 1984; Page 56
25 The city of the gods: a study in myth & mortality. John S. Dunne, 1965; Page 157
26 Character, plot and thought in Plato’s Timaeus-Critias. Warman Welliver, 1977; Page 41
27 Legendary islands of the Atlantic: a study in medieval geography. William Henry Babcock, American Geographical Society
Guys,
The Atlantis Archives is all for a healthy discussion and a variety of opinion. As we are all aware, there are probably as many theories as there are books that have been written on the subject of Atlantis… okay perhaps that is a ‘slight’ over exageration… but please let’s refrain from any personal attacks and keep the site friendly. Afterall, we all share the same interest!